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railracer express
Soul Unison
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 771
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 Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:16 pm Post subject: PAs |
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I wonder if anybody was able to finish a game without using PAs. I beat the first game and the second without PA.
Don't ask me how I beat thunderman, and the others without PA. Just don't somehow I did. Yes it was a major pain and I lost plenty of my life in beating the game.
I did not know anything about PAs until the third game.
I heard there was a rumor that you only can use 1 type of PA in a battle in the 5th game. Any truth with that? I do not know how I can beat any boss using just one dreamsword. Espcially if it has like 3000 hp
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Razorman .Exe
Net Savior
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 114
Location: Wherever Hell Freezes Over
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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I think my first time around with BN4. Seriously, yo need at least one PA to beat a boss? I beat Duo V3 without a PA. I just used PanelReturns and GunDelSols, cause I have 2 sets of 1,2, and 3 :stonecube: Heheheheheheheheheh
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Hikari
Ridiculously Intolerable
Joined: 15 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Never had a time without Program Advances; they're too important.
And whatever that rumor is, it's probably untrue.
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Midnight
This is a Hilbert Space
Age: 37
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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[spoil:071b8e5cb2]The rumor is true. For BN5, you may only use one PA of a given name per battle. Thus, you may have four copies of Sword, WideSword, and LongSword, but you may only declare a LifeSword only once each battle with a virus or a navi.
Sigh...that detracts heavily from folder building.[/spoil:071b8e5cb2]
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Pitchums
REO's #1 Yuna Fanboy
Joined: 15 Mar 2005
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Location: On Terra Serving Miss Yuna
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't know about PAs till I played MMBN one for the second time. I made it through all of the first time with a really cruddy folder. I never even accidentally stumbled on a PA. I think I stumbled on the Zeta Cannon on accident my second time through... that REALLY made the game even easier than it already was... man I love the first BN game.
Then in every game since then I've tried to use as many PAs as I can.
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Razorman .Exe
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Well, my first PA was when I was fighting Bubbleman in BN3. I went like, "What the hell?", Then fried his as$. It was GigaCannon1, I think, yeah. If I thought 150 damage was good, Silver Bullet was WAY better, though it's not a PA.
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Synchro-Kun
SOS団 =/= Club!
Joined: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 999
Location: Ordering my army of red doom to annilate anyone who hasn't go to Golden Gash yet. =(
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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I started playing BN3 first.......I didn't noe a single thing about PA until I got a subfolder....I was like Spreader P/Q/S (forgot the order...dunno if that's right), and what the heck? and use the spreader P.A. It was then my friend taught me PAs. ><
I can't live without P.A.s....let's see you fight the SP version of the final boss in BN4 without PAs and only 2 +300 and no more heal chips -_-|||.
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java_saint
I Beat the 8 Robot Masters
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 5:10 am Post subject: |
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I didn't use any P.A's for the first game...
The only P.A I ever used was Z-Cannon after that...
Most of the time I just use step-swords and shockwaves spam away...
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PlaguedOne
a.k.a. Pyo
Age: 42
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:59 am Post subject: |
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I never knew about Program Advances at all until I was nearly finished with EXE2, and then I didn't use them until after I beat that game.
| Midnight Critic wrote: | | [spoil:fda9b90251]Sigh...that detracts heavily from folder building.[/spoil:fda9b90251] |
I disagree. It detracts from the ability to create abusive folders and forces players to stop playing with one-hit kill uber attacks. I like that little addition. Curb the powergaming!
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Midnight
This is a Hilbert Space
Age: 37
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Location: The AfterMath. Otherwise, New York City.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm...perhaps you're right. Much of the 'metagame' with these folders will be drastically altered, as many folders can no longer function in their current form. Now games will be determined more by clever use of chips rather than degenerate combinations or luck of the draw. However, I can think of one that laughs at this change: [spoil:4b833a5d4c]"Psycho Bouncer," or the folder that runs on PitHockey. Never could cram more than one copy of each PitHockey in a folder, anyway.[/spoil:4b833a5d4c]
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SaitoRockman
banned onoes :<
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:23 am Post subject: |
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I don't use PAs at all. I like the challenge, since BN1 was TOO easy. I beat the Dream Virus without taking any damage.
Also, Duo only is hard because of that laser attack. If that is not in his attacks, I could beat him without damage too.
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railracer express
Soul Unison
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 771
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Razorman .Exe wrote: | | I think my first time around with BN4. Seriously, yo need at least one PA to beat a boss? I beat Duo V3 without a PA. I just used PanelReturns and GunDelSols, cause I have 2 sets of 1,2, and 3 :stonecube: Heheheheheheheheheh |
Uh how did you manage to get enough money to get all the sets?
Yeah I found about PAs when playing the third game
Ok before I go do something stupid, I'm going to bet that capcom lower the damage of the PA bodyguard. Any truth to that? Also what is the chips required this time to make bodyguard in the 5th game?
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Sketch
The Boy who is Very Sart
Age: 37
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Bodyguard is still the same chips...what would give you any idea they changed it? .-.
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PlaguedOne
a.k.a. Pyo
Age: 42
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Bodyguard is no longer effective in Netbattles, IMO. It attacks so slowly that it's really easy to avoid. The only use I can see is to use it to force an opponent out of a position.
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Malinhion
Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| PlaguedOne wrote: | | Midnight Critic wrote: | | [spoil:b0d0ef3954]Sigh...that detracts heavily from folder building.[/spoil:b0d0ef3954] |
I disagree. It detracts from the ability to create abusive folders and forces players to stop playing with one-hit kill uber attacks. I like that little addition. Curb the powergaming! |
Powergaming? EXE3 was nowhere near the button-mashing fest that EXE2 was. Three was perfectly balanced. They screwed up four by nerfing the amount of codes per chip and decreasing the number of folders you could build and practically compete with. In four, there were two options: NoiseStorm and JigokuHockey. And who really went Dark? Even though JigokuHockey was a matter of just drawing the right chips, it was an absolute slaughter in NetBattles. DreamSword folders are probably the only other folders you could put in this tier, and anyone with a decent JigokuHockey draw would rape. Oh, and folders based around psuedocombos such as Silver Bullet are absolute trash. You wait all game for one chip and spend 14 rounds trying to buff it up until you get an unecessarily high damage potential for one shot that's likely to miss. Why? Because the locking chips in BN4 are crap. Look at all those folders that try to rely on one big "combo" for damage potential. They're flooded with ZapRings and other such trash. You might also be able to put GDS folders up there, but that's half a matter of trying to land a piledriver and half a matter of finding some method of standing there while your opponent stands under the limited range of GDS damage with no incentive. In 4, they restricted everything so only a few folders stood out as powerful. Making a stupid change like that made the game really unbalanced, especially since anyone willing to sacrifice their HP for DarkChips could easily rape anything. DarkLance + DarkSword? 1000 damage that's nigh unavoidable.
They tried to "rebalance" it by [spoil:b0d0ef3954]nerfing PAs in five[/spoil:b0d0ef3954], which just made the situation even worse because you can't build a cohesive, flowing folder. As soon as I tried to [spoil:b0d0ef3954]make a DreamSword the second time and I couldn't,[/spoil:b0d0ef3954] I stopped playing. I threw away everything I had related to the damn game. I was done with it. And I don't expect to be playing any more EXE titles at all. It's a horrible decision, and I won't stand for it. Capcom can go fornicate themselves with a rubber mallet. They've sapped all possibilities for creativity and competition.
As for your argument, it's ridiculous. Any program advance or so-called "combo" that has the potential to kill you in one hit [spoil:b0d0ef3954]only really needs one use anyhow[/spoil:b0d0ef3954], doesn't it? You're just screwing over everyone else who wants to play with [spoil:b0d0ef3954]more copies of less-powerful program advances[/spoil:b0d0ef3954]. The funniest thing about your argument is that, if you think about it, you could still build Noise Storm, Silver Bulllet, and JigokuHockey folders with [spoil:b0d0ef3954]the new program advance restriction[/spoil:b0d0ef3954]. So how, praytell, are they fixing anything?
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railracer express
Soul Unison
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 771
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| Sketch wrote: | | Bodyguard is still the same chips...what would give you any idea they changed it? .-. |
Because in the 1st game, you need shadowman to do the PA, and i heard that shadowman is in thte 5th game so I thought, it was going to be a navi PA instead of a regular PA
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PlaguedOne
a.k.a. Pyo
Age: 42
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:48 am Post subject: |
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It's a step in a good direction, in my opinion. That's the key line. "in my opinion"
In any case, Pit Hockey is easy to dodge. Not as easy to avoid as "Silver Bullet" but still easy.
Powergaming != button mashing. Power gaming is the practice of using the most powerful thing to the exclusion of all else. While this gives you the highest chance of a win, it destroys all fun. Fun is the main reason I play video games, not to win absolutely every battle. It's the same concept in CCGs. To hell with winning, play for fun or leave me alone and stop crying that you can't [insert PA here] me again.
I certainly never said that all combos are being effected by this evenly. I still feel that restricting PAs to one user per battle is a good move and a step in the right direction. You can't expect a major change like that to come out perfectly in one try. But hey, if you want to run away from the games as a result, go ahead. Nobody is forcing you to play.
I still think this all comes down to mostly to people forgetting why you play. For fun.
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Malinhion
Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| PlaguedOne wrote: | | It's a step in a good direction, in my opinion. That's the key line. "in my opinion" |
And I'm trying to convince you that your opinion is wrong. It's the nature of debate.
| Quote: | | In any case, Pit Hockey is easy to dodge. Not as easy to avoid as "Silver Bullet" but still easy. |
You can't dodge it all after an AreaGrab. Also, it pierces.
| Quote: | | Powergaming != button mashing. Power gaming is the practice of using the most powerful thing to the exclusion of all else. While this gives you the highest chance of a win, it destroys all fun. Fun is the main reason I play video games, not to win absolutely every battle. It's the same concept in CCGs. To hell with winning, play for fun or leave me alone and stop crying that you can't [spoil:86e04941cb][insert PA here] me again[/spoil:86e04941cb]. |
How you equate wanting to create a diverse field of folders with wanting to "powergame"? I said they sapped creativity. I said they didn't address the problem, and I explained how. I explained how it made the power folders so much more broken, and now you're telling me that I'm whining because I can't powergame? I said I wanted to play a less powerful folder , but be able to [spoil:86e04941cb]use lesser PAs more than once to balance it out[/spoil:86e04941cb] and now that's out the the question.
And disregaridng the fact that you took into account nothing that I said, there are so many gaps in your argument. What if I think winning is fun? What if I think being able to compete with a lower-tier folder is fun? What if I think making new, competetive folders is fun?
And powergaming in the EXE series does equate to button mashing. Look at EXE2. It's all about who could get off what first. So much so that better plays just end up blacklisting some combos, such as Gater. Can you FullCustom your way to a Gater+10 before I can button mash out my AreaGrabs and beefy Meteors? My Invis or your 2xHero? My Shadow or your FlashMan. Past that, that's when the skill comes in. When only two or three folders can really compete, any anyhting else is hard-pressed to even deal out 1000 damage over 30 chips, what the hell are you doing even trying to have fun with competing?
| Quote: | | I certainly never said that all combos are being effected by this evenly. I still feel that [spoil:86e04941cb]restricting PAs to one user per battle[/spoil:86e04941cb] is a good move and a step in the right direction. You can't expect a major change like that to come out perfectly in one try. But hey, if you want to run away from the games as a result, go ahead. Nobody is forcing you to play. |
I stopped playing the games after they messed up EXE4 and EXE5. I hated four, but I gave five a chance. Now I regret ever doing so. There wouldn't be an "error" to fix to "make a step in the right direction" had they not demolished the great system they had in the first place. I can't blame them for wanting to try something new, but restricted chip codes is just laziness, and trying to "fix" game balance issues by implemening stupid systems that don't even begin to address the problem but subtract from other gameplay elements is such a terrifically stupid idea that it makes me sick to my stomach. They're just too damn lethargic to test the game and find out what's balanced, and what can make the game better. Capcom has gone into money-making mode. Look at all the EXE crap they're releasing. They don't care about the games anymore, it's just become a cash crop, and the fact that people attribute these changes to Capcom trying to actually rectify the problem instead of providing a quick-fix for something they broke because they don't really give a crap about the players anymore is just craziness.
| Quote: | | I still think this all comes down to mostly to people forgetting why you play. For fun. |
Which is exactly why I have a problem with them sapping the creative aspect out fo the game by completely ruining folder building, which is the aprt I had the most fun building. Now every folder is made within two or three weeks of the Japanese release. It took us more than eight months to find most of the folder possibilities in EXE3. In EXE4, even if new folders were made, it was pointless because you had no chance of competing with them versus a broken folder or a lucky chip draw. Where's the fun in that? The fun is actually having a chance to overcome adversity and making a folder that can stand strong even if top tier folders are powerful.
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PlaguedOne
a.k.a. Pyo
Age: 42
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Malinhion wrote: | | PlaguedOne wrote: | | It's a step in a good direction, in my opinion. That's the key line. "in my opinion" |
And I'm trying to convince you that your opinion is wrong. It's the nature of debate. |
I'd like to get this down first: Opinions, by their very nature, cannot be wrong, nor can they be correct.
Pit Hockey still only hits 3 of 6 panels after an Area Steal. I can dodge it, so it's dodgable.
| Quote: | | How you equate wanting to create a diverse field of folders with wanting to "powergame"? I said they sapped creativity. I said they didn't address the problem, and I explained how. I explained how it made the power folders so much more broken, and now you're telling me that I'm whining because I can't powergame? I said I wanted to play a less powerful folder , but be able to [spoil:ee9803e229]use lesser PAs more than once to balance it out[/spoil:ee9803e229] and now that's out the the question. |
As long as the overly powerful PAs exist, I'll agree with the one-use rule. Otherwise, I agree with you.
| Quote: | | What if I think winning is fun? What if I think being able to compete with a lower-tier folder is fun? What if I think making new, competetive folders is fun? |
I won't play against somebody who has to win to have fun. I think that's a bad character trait, but that just opinion. No point in arguing that. :P
| Quote: | | And powergaming in the EXE series does equate to button mashing. Look at EXE2. It's all about who could get off what first. So much so that better plays just end up blacklisting some combos, such as Gater. Can you FullCustom your way to a Gater+10 before I can button mash out my AreaGrabs and beefy Meteors? My Invis or your 2xHero? My Shadow or your FlashMan. Past that, that's when the skill comes in. When only two or three folders can really compete, any anyhting else is hard-pressed to even deal out 1000 damage over 30 chips, what the hell are you doing even trying to have fun with competing? |
I'll certainly concede that point to you in regards to EXE2. Gate Magic was very abused in that game. x.x
| Quote: | | I stopped playing the games after they messed up EXE4 and EXE5. I hated four, but I gave five a chance. Now I regret ever doing so. There wouldn't be an "error" to fix to "make a step in the right direction" had they not demolished the great system they had in the first place. I can't blame them for wanting to try something new, but restricted chip codes is just laziness, and trying to "fix" game balance issues by implemening stupid systems that don't even begin to address the problem but subtract from other gameplay elements is such a terrifically stupid idea that it makes me sick to my stomach. They're just too damn lethargic to test the game and find out what's balanced, and what can make the game better. Capcom has gone into money-making mode. Look at all the EXE crap they're releasing. They don't care about the games anymore, it's just become a cash crop, and the fact that people attribute these changes to Capcom trying to actually rectify the problem instead of providing a quick-fix for something they broke because they don't really give a crap about the players anymore is just craziness. |
All companies aim to make money. It's the definition of a company. They have to think about the players, because if the players begin to hate it they won't buy it, and then, they're not making money. I agree that EXE4 was a horible game. I have yet to try EXE5 to experience it for myself. I only have hearsay to work with thus far. If what I think is a step in a good direction turns out to fail horribly, I'll probably think twice before getting EXE6.
I'd also like to apologize if you think all of what I said was meant to target you. That was my fault, and I should have assumed that's how it'd be taken when I was only quoting you. Most of it was general statements in regards to players as a whole.
Anywho, I agree that EXE3 was awesome for Netbattles. I think EXE2 had the best non-Netbattle gameplay. Limiting -powerful- PAs (the sibject of this thread) is a good move. Limiting weaker ones, not so much.
| Quote: | | EDIT: Not sure if some of what you said could be considered spoilers, but I'm whiting them out anyhow, as they have been thus far. I just happened to miss one before. |
I don't really think this PA limiting is much of a spoiler. It's not a plot point, so I'm not bothering to mark it.
(And re-reading this... I think I'm rambling. x.x I'm too cold, don't make me think yet!)
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Enzan Chaud
[Tuxedo Mask]
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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I learned of PAs very fast. Mainly in EXE1 by using Roll, Barrier, and Recov300...was that how the Program Advance went? Anyways...EXE 2 HyperBurst save me so much I loved it. But my favorite has always been LifeSword. I only have on Air hockey PA and a couple of others since they fit with my folder theme of breaking chips. That's the ONLY reason. I use other slow breaking chips like breakers and stuff. Get rid of the enemy's back panels and rape them with metal fist or something like that.
and Malinhion...there is no DEBATE just opinion here. We don't need some big, fancy argument. You stated you're opinions and thoughts. I'm not attacking you but not everyone will see it your way, either. If Capcom didn't care about the players then we'd have a very sad son of Inafune on our hands. >>;
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