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Lord S Paradox
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 36
Location: Wandering aimlessly from place to place.
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 Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:43 am Post subject: |
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I dunno. Humans seem to be adapting and improving their technology at a rapid rate. Just take a look at computers and the internet. Just a few years ago, AOL was considered a pretty spiffy idea and dial-up was just a small, but none-too-impeding setback. The only place where you could use the internet was on a pc, and most often, the only places where a kid could get their hands on one was at school or the library. Now, not only are pc's far more available, seeing as how some people have more than one in their home, but Mac has had a comeback, and even cell phones have internet linking. CELL PHONES!! Usually you need a modem for such things, but now you can take the www on the go. And not just cell phones now; PSPs, thoses PDA-esque gizmos, and I think some iPODs are in the mix now as well.
The point I'm trying to make here is, never underestimate the prospect of human technology. Just ask any American conspiracy theorist, and they'll tell you, "Whatever domestic technology you see, the government has had for 50 years prior."
And I restate my dislike for anything that looks like a cuddly little Tamagotchi as a computer program. It's one thing if we have a SHODON type berserker A.I.; something like that you can hate without holding back. But a cute little doggy Rity, people would look at that and go "awww" right before it shuts down the computer system and reboots it in it's image, all with a smile on it's face. After all, who said berserker A.I. had to be ugly?
No, really. I don't want little critters like those running around from computer to computer like navis. Just.... no.
Last edited by Lord S Paradox on Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DrkXFuZion
Soul Unison
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 895
Location: I'm Lost!!!
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I never understood humanity's drive to sythetically replicate humanity. |
Because everybody wants to play God. :]
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cccd-erckie
The Cookie Monster
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 381
Location: Sitting in front of the world's crappiest computer.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: |
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The term "good" walks a very fine line. Suppose your job isn't paying enough to feed your family, so you use your Navi to help you rob a bank to get some extra cash? Is that good or bad?
A very fine line, indeed. And then there are other things that could go wrong. Like Tachyon said, these autonomous programs could go rouge and start hijacking programs and causing major problems.
The more I think about it, the more problems I see...
My optimism stems from the dream of living life like they do in EXE, but I'm afraid that this is reality, not a kid's cartoon show. 
Still, it would be nice...
And I still want one. 
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Lord S Paradox
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 36
Location: Wandering aimlessly from place to place.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Good? Bad? Have you heard the phrase, "The road to Hell is paved with intentions?"
And a computer program that could provide important scans on your computer, help create and utelize other programs, search for data, and perform enhanced messaging while still having enough A.I. to go past the most basic and literal translation of input would be a great improvement.
Basically, computers only do what you tell them to do. If they could go just a little further and utelize a simulated version of common sense (when I want to translate the word "kid", I don't want the word for "baby goat") then we could do things much more smoothly.
And living the life of a kid's show in your dreams rocks, no question about it. Everything works better in theory than reality. |
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Tachyon360
Le Croissant
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 740
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| DrkXFuZion wrote: | | Because everybody wants to play God. :] |
Y'know, that's no doubt it. What else could explain the popularity of games like SimCity, The Sims (especially The Sims), and those ______ Tycoon games? |
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ACME-Rian
REO's Resident Intern
Age: 35
Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 404
Location: Stuck in a red state known as Texas...
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds fun,but like I wrote in a paper in my Freshman year about the future,technology could get risky if this Navi thing is a reality.(For LOL reasons,I barely knew anything while writing the paper,so I used EXE.Booyah!)
However,I like the idea.We're advancing our technology...step by step...
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Tachyon360
Le Croissant
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:22 am Post subject: |
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Technology doesn't advance step by step. While progress is continually made, it really only gets pushed forward in fits and bursts that are occurring ever more frequently.
There are other evolutionary directions technology could take, and they don't necessarily involve a world like Rockman.EXE, though it unfortunately seems that to a lesser or greater extent, people are going to push for something that approximates it.
I'd rather have seamless ubiquitous computing environments than Navis. While the concept presented in the article mirrors my idea of that, the key difference is that in my idea, there would be no intelligent program hopping about, but rather a UMPC-like device that can control nearby electronic equipment (and have said electronic equiment smoothly and seamlessly adjust to your presence) and tap into idle nearby computer resources.
Of course, there's pretty much no way I can do anything about it, since I'm a med school student, not a computer engineering major. |
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tuxdev
Net Savior
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:47 am Post subject: |
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Um, things don't just magically appear out of nowhere without significant research. It is step-by-step, but there is a definite cycle to release of research that could easily be construed as fits and bursts.
In a next generation mesh network, Navi-like programs may infact be required to effectively navigate through the Internet. Navis would be required to control said nearby devices. PDA and cellphone interfaces really aren't very good.
Also, beyond the nice-to-have convenience of Navis, the existence of Navi-like programs would impact tremendously the world of the visually impaired and motor impaired.
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All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu... This is the truth! This is my belief! ...At least for now.
The Mystery of Life; Vol. 841, Ch. 26
- Belthasar, Chrono Trigger
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Tachyon360
Le Croissant
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 740
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| tuxdev wrote: | | Um, things don't just magically appear out of nowhere without significant research. |
I never said they did. However, revolutionary new technologies and major innovations to existing technology likewise don't appear by means of constant gradual progression. Step-by-step is akin to CPUs gaining more power. No matter what they've gained so far, they're still CPUs based on the x86 instruction set. The idea of fits and bursts is applicable to the introduction of a new technology or significantly unique product concept built on existing technology to the mass market.
Let's use the possible creationg of a Navi as an example. Although there will be plenty of smaller developments like the software-robot presented in the article at the beginning of this thread, they're not necessarily going to happen sequentially, and actually taking the results of those different programs and creating a working, commercially viable Navi would constitute a "fit." Subsequent refining of the product that would spur rapid widespread adoption of said product would constitute a "burst." "Step-by-step" would then be to make Navis more intelligent, more customizable, and possess new features. The same has been seen in cellular phones, to cite a real-world example.
Still, although it could make for an interesting debate, this whole point is a rather meaningless argument to make, because one way or another, technology is advancing at an exponential rate.
| tuxdev wrote: | | In a next generation mesh network, Navi-like programs may infact be required to effectively navigate through the Internet. |
Right, so the Internet's highly organized server-client architecture and high-bandwidth backbones will be eschewed in favor of a total mess of idividual computers with capricious bandwidth and uptime. I can't honestly say that I see that *ever* happening. Sure, it might very well be efficient on a small scale, like in a home network or in a small corporation, and I'm sure even computing clusters would benefit from a mesh architecture as well, but peer-to-peer networking is simply not very scalable.
But let's entertain the possibility of the Internet becoming a mesh network. There is no need for a virtual personality to run around and find what you need, as not only would it be a very complicated system, but also a system that would require enormous amounts of bandwidth, since programs are being freely transferred about in an uncontrolled manner. As long as a protocol is devised to make packets go where they need to go without too much lag, the browser as we know it will continue to exist.
| tuxdev wrote: | | Navis would be required to control said nearby devices. |
Following that logic, we need Navis to create Bluetooth connections, or to connect USB On-The-Go devices. Obviously, we don't, and since the underlying principle is the same, we never will.
| tuxdev wrote: | | PDA and cellphone interfaces really aren't very good. |
I never said that it would use a PDA-style interface. Cellular phone interfaces generally aren't that great, and PDA interfaces are far from perfect, both in hardware and GUI in both cases.
However, UMPCs and mini-tablets show great potential with regard to a ubiquitous computing terminal as far as hardware goes, and mobile augmented reality systems would tremendously complement such a device. Software design for tablets and UMPCs is still a very young field without all that many resources being put into it, so there's still plenty of room to grow in that regard.
As I've stated before, I'm really quite hopeful that somewhere along the line, GUIs will be able to intelligently and unobtrusively adapt to peoples' computing habits. Such a development would be vastly more convenient than a Navi.
| tuxdev wrote: | | Also, beyond the nice-to-have convenience of Navis, |
I still really don't see the convenience of a Navi. To me, I can only see the nuisance of a middle-man.
| tuxdev wrote: | | the existence of Navi-like programs would impact tremendously the world of the visually impaired and motor impaired. |
Please, explain. How could an intelligent program with a personality that jumps around place to place help handicapped people? |
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tuxdev
Net Savior
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Think about blind people. Right now, they have to use way-too-dumb text readers and way-too-dumb voice recognition. A blind person could go onto a blog and tell the navi to recite the most recent titles. Or go to a forum and tell the blind guy what's new.
A motor impaired person (Paralasys, Cerebral Palsy) can't use a keyboard or mouse effectively. They would need an audio interface too.
As I see it, a Navi is really the ultimate generic voice-based interface. You tell it a high level command, and it figures out the low-level details for you.
I have a theory that Navi's really never leave their PET, and that's why plugging out "returns" a navi to the PET, they never really left.
_________________
All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu... This is the truth! This is my belief! ...At least for now.
The Mystery of Life; Vol. 841, Ch. 26
- Belthasar, Chrono Trigger
src2pkg, Slackware package creator
Sol Survivor, best Tower Defense game EVER |
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Tachyon360
Le Croissant
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 740
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| tuxdev wrote: | | Think about blind people. Right now, they have to use way-too-dumb text readers and way-too-dumb voice recognition. |
Please, tell me, how would the Navi recognize voices without a voice recognition algorithm?
| tuxdev wrote: | | A blind person could go onto a blog and tell the navi to recite the most recent titles. Or go to a forum and tell the blind guy what's new. |
And whay are Navis are specifically needed for that, again?
| tuxdev wrote: | | A motor impaired person (Paralasys, Cerebral Palsy) can't use a keyboard or mouse effectively. They would need an audio interface too. |
Audio interfaces and Navis are two different things. I agree that voice interfaces would be beneficial, but why do Navis need to be part of the picture?
| tuxdev wrote: | | As I see it, a Navi is really the ultimate generic voice-based interface. You tell it a high level command, and it figures out the low-level details for you. |
Voice recognition software will only get more advanced as time goes on, and it will become more and more tighly integrated with various operating systems. With method of calculating verbal intent and an intelligent GUI, and it would do the job just as well, if not better than a Navi.
Microsoft has already devoted quite a few resources to voice recognition in Windows Vista, and if it proves even marginally successful, I'm sure Apple, Gnome, and KDE will begin to look at it more seriously not too far down the road.
The thing is, Navis need not be in the picture. Voice control is viable in pretty much any system. The only thing an artifically intelligent Navi-like system would give would be a virtual personality, which I personally believe is useless bloat, like the Geyes in Gnome. (Toss in synthetic intelligence and the ability to alter itself, and like I mentioned before, we'll eventually see homicidal computers, but that's beyond the scope of this post.)
| tuxdev wrote: | | I have a theory that Navi's really never leave their PET, and that's why plugging out "returns" a navi to the PET, they never really left. |
Okay, so that would solve the problem of hogging Internet bandwidth. It still solves nothing else, since you'd still need to contend with a middle-man to get done what you need to get done, as opposed to conventional software where you do what you need directly.
Lastly, on a completely unrelated note...
| tuxdev wrote: | | It is a matter of English being such a aweful language, and I hate it profusely. I myself emphasize correct grammar, but English simply isn't logically consistent like Japanese or the constructed language Lojban. I don't really know Lojban, just of Lojban. |
Logical consistency simply isn't human. The English language was built from Anglo-Saxon and Normandic French, and as such inherited irregularities from both languages, with new irregularities forming from vestiges of old, complex grammar rules as the language underwent a general simplification. It's like gourmet cooking. Naturally complex flavor, not a single lab-refined chemical flavor sprayed over neutral over-processed garbage.
Perfection and beauty lie in natural imperfection and quirky human aesthetics, not mathematical perfection. In my opinion, the most beautiful languages are those grammar with complex grammar, grammatical style, or an irregular vocabulary. Polish, French, and English, respectively, are three examples. |
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tuxdev
Net Savior
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Voice recognition software will only get more advanced as time goes on, and it will become more and more tighly integrated with various operating systems. With method of calculating verbal intent and an intelligent GUI, and it would do the job just as well, if not better than a Navi.
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First, programs shouldn't be tightly integrated to the OS. That's a definite Bad Thing when it comes to security.
Second, It isn't just voice recognition, or speech synthesis. An effective high-level audio interface requires some sort of AI core, and that AI is the Navi. Everything else is an I/O system. "Eliza" could be construed as a very, very primitive sort of Navi. As soon as you utter the word "intellegent", you've got a Navi.
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Please, tell me, how would the Navi recognize voices without a voice recognition algorithm?
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Because everybody does it differently, and a Navi needs to recognize that it is really the same thing.
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Okay, so that would solve the problem of hogging Internet bandwidth. It still solves nothing else, since you'd still need to contend with a middle-man to get done what you need to get done, as opposed to conventional software where you do what you need directly.
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The middle man isn't the problem. The middle man is the point. A single high level instruction versus a series of low-level actions.
Personally, I would love to have a Navi I could do "Pair Programming" with. It would be a whole lot better than the penguin plushy I've got now that I explain things to as a way of better understanding things myself.
_________________
All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu... This is the truth! This is my belief! ...At least for now.
The Mystery of Life; Vol. 841, Ch. 26
- Belthasar, Chrono Trigger
src2pkg, Slackware package creator
Sol Survivor, best Tower Defense game EVER |
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Tachyon360
Le Croissant
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 740
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| tuxdev wrote: | | First, programs shouldn't be tightly integrated to the OS. That's a definite Bad Thing when it comes to security. |
So integrating software was a bad choice of words. Adding such functionality to various environments (Explorer, Aqua, Gnome, and KDE) would be a better way to phrase what I was thinking.
| tuxdev wrote: | | Second, It isn't just voice recognition, or speech synthesis. An effective high-level audio interface requires some sort of AI core, and that AI is the Navi. Everything else is an I/O system. "Eliza" could be construed as a very, very primitive sort of Navi. As soon as you utter the word "intellegent", you've got a Navi. |
Okay, there's some obvious lack of common terminology between us. When I refer to a Navi, it is very specifically a synthetically intelligent personality as portrayed in Rockman.EXE, not some level of intelligence within a piece of software.
Therefore, when I mention intelligence, I am not referring to a Navi, but rather a characteristic a Navi possesses. Furthermore, I mention intelligence making a distinction between artificial intelligence (mimics intelligent behavior) and actual synthetic intelligence (replicates intelligent behavior), as well as making the assumption that intelligence can be limited in its capacity to do anything outside of what it was meant to do, given a limited set of tools (and as such, intelligence that can freely alter itself can expand and gain free will).
In addition, when I mention voice recognition, it refers the process by which natural verbal commands are contextually and situationally recognized and processed as computer instructions. Today, it's rather crude, but the definition nevertheless applies more or less both to what we have now and what we'll have later. Unless you have a single term to more accurately describe what I refer to as voice recognition, I'll continue to use what I've been using.
| tuxdev wrote: | | Because everybody does it differently, and a Navi needs to recognize that it is really the same thing. |
A voice recognition system needs to identify such a thing. A Navi is just a personality with said system. A rather worthless personality, in my opinion.
| tuxdev wrote: | | The middle man isn't the problem. The middle man is the point. A single high level instruction versus a series of low-level actions. |
Processing human instructions as computer commands is what human beings call a user interface. Voice recognition (as per my definition of it), can serve as a user interface.
When I say middle-man, I mean it quite literally. An intelligent personality would be a middle-man. That's something totally pointless, since it's faster and more efficient to simply input commands yourself by one means or another than to have a Navi interpret it and do it for you.
Granted, your idea of a Navi (beyond your apparent definition of it as another word for intelligence in software) most likely is nothing more than eye candy with a personality that acknowledges your verbal commands. Either way, a Navi is a worthless concept. (And if given the intelligence and range of freedom granted in the Rockman.EXE universe or what the RIT team might eventually spark off, a very dangerous concept).
| tuxdev wrote: | | Personally, I would love to have a Navi I could do "Pair Programming" with. It would be a whole lot better than the penguin plushy I've got now that I explain things to as a way of better understanding things myself. |
So, basically you're saying you need a friend to program with? Why a Navi? |
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tuxdev
Net Savior
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
So integrating software was a bad choice of words. Adding such functionality to various environments (Explorer, Aqua, Gnome, and KDE) would be a better way to phrase what I was thinking.
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Reimlementation like that independently is exactly the opposite of a generic ultimate interface. The Navi is first and foremost a generic ultimate interface.
The Navi does not actually require a personality, or an avatar. That is psycological sugar. It is a lot less unnerving to talk to an avatar, and a lot less unnerving to talk to a personality that has a natural entropic aspect to its speech.
Here's how I break up a "Navi". It is actually much like a compiler. Makes sense, because compilers have more or less the same general purpose.
Voice Recognition: Takes raw audio stream, outputs phoneme and timing stream. "Parser" stage of compilers.
Language Analyzer: Takes phoneme stream, outputs an sexpr (that's symbolic expression) that contains language independent grammer and noun information. Uses context of recently translated phrases. "Lexical Analyzer" stage of compilers.
AI Core: Takes language sexpr. Outputs language sexpr for audio "rendering". Perfoms directed actions.
Language Generator: Takes language sexpr, outputs phoneme stream.
Speech Synthesizer: Takes phoneme stream, outputs raw audio stream.
Examples to come soon.
_________________
All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu... This is the truth! This is my belief! ...At least for now.
The Mystery of Life; Vol. 841, Ch. 26
- Belthasar, Chrono Trigger
src2pkg, Slackware package creator
Sol Survivor, best Tower Defense game EVER |
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AngelfanA16
Nebula
Age: 34
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 585
Location: Angel Stadium
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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The price for one of these things has to be in the thousands if not millions of dollars. But this is one huge step in technology.
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Tachyon360
Le Croissant
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 740
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| tuxdev wrote: | | Reimlementation like that independently is exactly the opposite of a generic ultimate interface. The Navi is first and foremost a generic ultimate interface. |
It's gotta happen somehow first, whether or not it's generic and platform-independent.
However, in a ubiquitous computing environment, voice controls can still be pretty much universal, provided that the terminal a person would carry would possess that capability.
| tuxdev wrote: | | The Navi does not actually require a personality, or an avatar. That is psycological sugar. It is a lot less unnerving to talk to an avatar, and a lot less unnerving to talk to a personality that has a natural entropic aspect to its speech. |
Unnerving would be having a computer talk to me, regardless of whether or not it has a graphical avatar or a personality. Voice command suffices, thank you very much.
| tuxdev wrote: | | Here's how I break up a "Navi". It is actually much like a compiler. Makes sense, because compilers have more or less the same general purpose. |
Same in the sense that they take human-understandable commands and break them down into computer instructions, yes?
| tuxdev wrote: | | Voice Recognition: Takes raw audio stream, outputs phoneme and timing stream. "Parser" stage of compilers. |
I'd personally call that first step voice analysis. Most people would refer to the first three steps you describe as voice recognition or voice control.
The latter two steps would essentially be ear candy. While synthetic speech definitely has its uses, such as for the handicapped, or for automated telephone transactions, it's totally worthless bloat for the general public. I can't see myself ever using such a feature.
One more question: Why do you refer to an artificially intelligent voice control system as a Navi? The thing would have to at least be mobile and perpetually present to even approximate a Navi as portrayed in Rockman.EXE, and since that's the origin of the term we're discussing, should it not approximate the original definition?
Edit: spelling.
Last edited by Tachyon360 on Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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tuxdev
Net Savior
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Serendipity. One of my professors touched on this topic without knowing it. You can see what he envisions the Software industry will be like at the end of these lecture notes. Notice the Navi-like programs? That's what I'm thinking about. I'd be aiming for the Programmer's Apprentice.
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All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu... This is the truth! This is my belief! ...At least for now.
The Mystery of Life; Vol. 841, Ch. 26
- Belthasar, Chrono Trigger
src2pkg, Slackware package creator
Sol Survivor, best Tower Defense game EVER |
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Tachyon360
Le Croissant
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 740
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Eh, no offense meant, but your latest post is kinda... incoherent.
Let me get this straight: You mean that by luck, you came across a professor with a certain vision of what the computer industry holds, and that piqued your interest, so now you hope to join a project dealing with making AI applicable to the everyday life of the layman? Is that close, or did I totally misunderstand it?
That still doesn't answer my question. (Unless you didn't intend to answer it with that post. In which case, my bad.) |
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tuxdev
Net Savior
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Nah, he just stumbled onto what we've been discussing without knowing it, and I like how he put it.
It's supposed to answer how such a Navi-like program could be useful.
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Unnerving would be having a computer talk to me, regardless of whether or not it has a graphical avatar or a personality. Voice command suffices, thank you very much.
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Might be fine for you and me, but it really is unnerving to most people when voices come out of nowhere. Even the psycological illusion of an avatar helps considerably.
Part of the problem I see with our discussion is that I'm thinking about the Navi from the bottom (what exists today), and you are seeing it from the top (the ultimate form in Rockman.EXE). Even in the Rockman.EXE universe, the original Navis were quite dull and unemotional. Rockman.EXE himself was the Yuuichiro's project to insert the emotion needed for a "synthetic intellegence" above "artificial intellegence". The mobility and uptime of a Navi is due to its most common use, but not inherent to Navi technology.
_________________
All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu... This is the truth! This is my belief! ...At least for now.
The Mystery of Life; Vol. 841, Ch. 26
- Belthasar, Chrono Trigger
src2pkg, Slackware package creator
Sol Survivor, best Tower Defense game EVER |
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NetOperator Wibby
Wings of Dreams
Age: 36
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 772
Location: Hikari Labs � Dimensional Area
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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wow, this is getting really interesting. i am starting to see both sides a little more clearer now...
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