Double Standards and the world that promotes them.

**Sol**

First off, a fair warning. I am posting this here mainly because we do not have the debate forum anymore. However, I am still holding the rules that were there for this topic. If you cannot act in a civil manner, you will be dealt with harshly. You have been warned.

Anyway...

Today, it is fair to say that a lot of us have watched a lot of television. Probably too much, in fact. However, that isn't what this rant is about.

I'm sure you've all noticed commercials and even shows featuring a lot of questionable and controversial content. However, have you ever stopped and thought that you've been desensitized to it? So even if it is controversial, you're not bothered by it.

But then, something just like it or another side of an issue pops up, and you're uncomfortable with it, and think it's wrong or displeasing.

This is what is called a Double Standard.

Today's society, fueled by the mainstream media, is chock full of double standards. They're not right in any sense, yet it's hard to do anything to stop it.

One example, and this will be somewhat controversial just broaching this, is the portrayal of Girl-on-Girl and Boy-on-Boy today.

For the last few years, you've probably seen the commercials about so-called "wild" girls getting it on with each other, getting drunk, and just divesting themselves of all clothing for all to see. Yes, I'm talking about the Girls Gone Wild series, which for a certain amount of time, was airing in multiple commercials. (For the record, they have stopped because the guy who made them got in major trouble for having an underaged girl featured).

Not only that, but lesbian action in anything (movies, tv, games, etc.) has been classified as "hot". This is certainly a far cry from several decades ago.

However, what about the other side of the issue? What about two men together? Shouldn't they be treated in the same respect?

Unfortunately not.

While the public has been desensitized to two girls together, the image of two guys just holding hands or kissing sends the public in an uproar. When the issue of gay marriage was broached all around the country, it always or almost always portrayed men getting married or making plans, but not women.

Furthermore, two guys doing the above is always intended as shock value or something just to rile people up. Certain movies and TV shows use this as a way to getting people to watch.

Recently, I surveyed about 23 people within one of my classes, asking whether they were comfortable watching Girl-on-Girl, Guy-on-Guy, both, or no comment. The class was made up of around 14 males and 9 females.

Out of the results, 11 people (8 guys, 3 girls) said they were comfortable seeing Girl-on-Girl, 3 (1 guy, 2 girls) said they were comfortable with Guy-on-Guy, 2 (both of them guys) for both, and 8 declined to answer.

Later, one who voted for both said that even though he voted that he liked both, he still thought that lesbian relationships were being objectified by the media. I couldn't say I agreed, but it is a thought-provoker.

In any case, my point here is that because of the media, the general consensus is that "Lesbian relationships = HOT and okay", while "Gay relationship = EWWWW WRONG".

I'm not necessarily saying this is the case for everyone, because this certainly doesn't pertain to everyone. I am drawing this on what I have seen thus far.

This will lead to my next point. Gender bias in swearing.

Tabby had brought up a very good point when I asked about opinions on double standards. While it certainly isn't alright to call someone a bitch or a whore, or even a slut, they seem more appropriate for use in society than the words intended for a male. Such words like "bastard" and "dick". Even "asshole". While they might be uncensored on something like South Park, mainstream block shows usually censor words so they don't get in trouble.

On TV, you'll notice the male-oriented swear words get censored, yet not the female ones. Why is that?

I'm not saying the words are alright at all; the opposite in fact. However, it doesn't take away from the fact that most of the words intended for a male are censored, while a good amount of ones intended for women are let through. This is definitely not alright at all, yet there has been no change.

In conclusion, there are a lot of double standards, and I've only just briefly gone over them. While mainstream media is not necessarily an evil, it does have influence over society, and the (double) standards that are shaped.

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Just as an endnote, BE CIVIL and stay on topic.
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Tachyon360 · Le Croissant Joined: 16 Mar 2005 Posts: 740

When you look at any group in the world that has certain interests they hope to realize, they're going to have their own set of biases and double-standards. Some will inevitably also have a louder mouth than others.

It's really hard to say exactly what biases exist and how prominent they really are. The media itself, for example, whether or not it really promotes lesbian relations over gay relations as something sexually appealing to a statistically significant extent, may or may not also be feeding people the idea that it's becoming problematic.

With all due respect, polling classmates hardly constitutes a reasonable statistical study. I believe that there needs to be a large-scale, in-depth statistical study approaching each of the many facets of the proposed issue. Basically, it must be established whether or not a significant issue even exists before debating how it should be dealt with.

The Gallup Poll, for example, has only studied how Americans view homosexual relations and whether or not gay marriage should be allowed, but as far as I can tell, no study was done on any sort of double-standard between gays and lesbians or men and women.
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HeatShadow · Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:16 am Post subject:

Unfortunately, much of the reasoning behind this is that we live in a male-dominated society. In general, being gay is seen as being bad or corrupted, likely having to do with almost every religion drilling that concept into our brains for several generations on end. However, because it's men who are up at the top calling the shots, it's their whims that get passed down as law. They like to watch and fantasize about women. They don't like to watch and fantasize about men. Thus, it's the scantily-clad women who are running around having wild lesbian sex and not the other way around.

Really, the concept goes both ways; whoever's in charge gets to decide what's kosher and what's not. I browse through DeviantArt every day, and almost all of the galleries that include pictures of gay couples are run by women, while almost all of the galleries that include pictures of lesbian couples are run by men. It'd be a safe bet to say that if we were living in a female-dominated society, we'd be desensitized to all the gay men running around in the media, while lesbian women would be considered shock value.

That applies to most of the Double Standards; the ones that are allowed are the ones that fit in with the desires of the people in charge.

As for the subject of censoring, though? I'm not quite sure about that one. I suppose it might be the fact that men are considered less easily offended? *shrug*
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Rock Miyabi · Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject:

Pretty much what I had to say about the whole gender+media issue was summed up well by HeatShadow. In a male-dominated society, that's how it's going to look. In an REO Valentine's Day art contest...not so much.

I also wouldn't say that it's the media's fault that it seems like male x male relationships are "wrong." A person's upbringing has just as much to do with it, as does their sexual orientation. When people are raised by their parents believing that it's only OK to be straight and there's something wrong with you if you were gay, or the Church preaching that it's sinful, it definitely affects how they would view said couplings. I wouldn't consider those media biases and they would more likely be heard first, before any type of media influence.

Personally, I don't think seeing two guys together is 'wrong,' and I have a second cousin who is gay. But there is still that weird feeling, because as a straight guy, it just seems...well, completely different from who I am. And with any person, differences can make people feel uncomfortable. So I'm sure the opposite holds true for women who are uncomfortable seeing female x female relationships. Doesn't necessarily mean people think it's completely wrong. All it is is another form of love. After all, the Greeks had many words for love, as it can expressed in so many different ways. It's just hard for people to understand what they don't feel.

On a general desensitization note, sure, there are many things I can think of. Most recently, with the VT shootings. When we see TV shows, anime, artwork, etc. with so much violence and blood which isn't real, you can just brush it off as fake and don't really think about it. Then an event like that happens. Some shows don't go on as planned because it seems like it's too soon, or you are disgusted by things that you originally weren't. I remember after 9/11, Cowboy Bebop was airing during that initial Adult Swim run. And they wouldn't air the Teddy Bear Bomber episode for the first time, since there was a twin-tower-type building that exploded in it. Wait a few months later, it's shown, and it still gets enough replays over the years.

And finally, on the curse word issue. While yes, cable shows can get away with more, in general, I think the issue has more to do with those "male" curse words being *ahem*...more anatomically vulgar...that they are not allowed. The same goes for the "female" versions, if you're looking at it using a few more curse words. I think most media outlets do try to have some type of equivalency towards what they censor, even if it might not appear that way. In our society, the B-word has mostly disappeared off of the "words you can't say on TV" list (well, we know that ideal has been totally eliminated thanks to South Park or the Sopranos.) Plus the timeslot shows air on also plays a role in what can be said or how often.

So I personally don't really see that as much of a double standard as you have brought up. You'd really have to do a serious study of how many times those specific words popped up in a show for comparision's sake. I actually did my senior thesis in college about vulgarity and violence in animated shows, but I didn't separate instances of profanity by gender, so I can't provide any really fascinating data in that regard. But it would be something interesting to study.
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Unknown Neo · Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject:

Truely, I don't care at all. I'd just rather not see that many men kissing other men because I am also a man. And thus, It's really just I like women so two women has that simple formula to it. One woman = good. Woman + woman = even better. While, man + man does not equal good. And thus, seeing all those yaoi pairings on fanfiction and fanart sites bother me because there's so much and sometimes, the couples make no sense. It's really just as simple as that. In my opinion it is at least.

**Izumi** · Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject:

Neko · Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:21 pm Post subject:

See, I see more of a double standard in racial issues then anything else. For example in rap music the n-word (which is taboo as I recall although I hear it all the time) can be sung by black rappers and they can sing about women in derogatory ways but flipside and the country goes nuts. Yes, I am talking about Imus.

I watch a lot of political crap because I have a friend who is really into political stuff and in order to keep up with her I watch/listen/read a lot of news. (It's a weird friendship) and I was watching Scarbarough Country on MSNBC and this debate was brought up and a very good point was made. Until *everyone* is held to the standard of not being able to say one word or make a statement nothing will change. Because that word will always be out there.

Also, Whoppi Goldberg also said something interesting I seem to recall. If you have to ask permission to say something then you're probably not going to be allowed to say it. Now I'm opening a whole can of worms here and I know that but I think this bears questioning as much as any gender bias. It's still a double standard. An uncomfortable one to be sure but it's still there and it's being fought over today. I recall a record label executive banning some words or trying to at least from his relases following the Imus incident.

Also, double standard less then words but I notice a lot (and this is not new by any means) that when a guy sleeps with a lot of women he is lauded and when a woman sleeps with a lot of guys she is a slut. And be it that this is an overused example it doesn't make it any less true.

Anywho, just my two cents.
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XHunter17 · Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:31 pm Post subject:

Nice ^.^ finally a place to have decent conversation. I totally agree with Sol.
In todays society any type of Girl-on-Girl "action" is considered "Cool" and or "HOT", while any type of Guy-on-Guy "action" would be considered gross, wrong, taboo. Which if we were to correct things, both should be considered taboo (wrong).

Now on to another Double Standard a lot of us have.

Most of us, (or at least some of us) have at some point, illegally downloaded music off of some sort of P2P program.

In todays society, we claim that internet pirating is both wrong and illegal.

Yet most of us still partake in using P2P software (like bit-torrent) and download Music, Movies, TV Shows, Anime, Games, Software, etc...

I know at least 13 close people (friends and family) that use P2P software to download miscellaneous things off of the web who also claim that pirating is wrong.

I myself have pirated many things off of the web which I plan to buy. But all because I plan to buy what I pirated, does it make it right?

No! of course not. It just makes me a pirate, and I'm wrong for doing so.
The right thing for me and many others to do would be to save up the money and buy the things we want out right.

Not only dose it give you a added appreciation for what you bought, but it also supports the company that made it.

I myself have started to go out and buy complete series of a anime, trying to get away from pirating things I want, but I only time will tell if I completely give up pirating.

I guess my two cents to add to this conversation is; that we live in a society that says "Stealing is wrong" but lets do it anyway.
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**Izumi** · Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:20 pm Post subject:

Rock Miyabi · Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:32 am Post subject:

Unknown Neo · Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:59 am Post subject:

**Izumi** · Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject:

HeatShadow · Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:12 pm Post subject:

Unknown Neo · Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject:

That seems close but I do have a friend like that. He doesn't "act" like it though. Also I don't really think that. I do know a joke about that though.
And my problem with those fics is that there's just so many. It's hard to find something that's not. And that can bother some people.

NetOperator Wibby · Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject:

hmm, thought-provoking indeed. in response to HeatShadow, i have also wondered why gay men were always thought as un-manly. that seems kind of stupid to me because a lot of gay guys i've seen are built like Street Fighter characters and can kick my ass, lol. who is to say what's manly and what isn't? i personally don't have a problem with homosexuality, more power to ya! why would straight guys complain anyway? that's more women for them! but i digress ... a couple of people have asked me if one of my best friends was gay. i honestly don't know but if he is i think he knows he could talk to me about it if he wanted to. yeah im a guy and i like girl on girl stuff but i don't try to make other guys think like me. like i said, more power to 'em. now, about the Imus thing. my mother and i were actually talking about that the other day about how the country blew it out of proportion. oh yeah, im black by the way. Shocked

Carlos Mencia also brought this up on his show and basically said the same thing. i dunno, double standards are everywhere. if there are people who support one side and not the other, doesn't that make them hypocrites?
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**Plantman** · Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 3:20 pm Post subject:

Nenji · Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject:

It sort of feels like, at times, the feminist movement has swung the perception of males. It's very difficult for single men to have a child or to adopt on their own, regardless of conditions, because people in general seem to have a perception that men will somehow give in to some kind of base instinct and take advantage of every vulnerable female we can find.

While that's not exactly the same as the topic, they are related and I feel that there is a lot of negative feelings towards males at the moment. I guess this is something that gets filtered through such perceptions, as well as the stigma of homosexuality.
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Unknown Neo · Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 11:40 am Post subject:

**Tabby** · Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 6:08 pm Post subject:

Nenji: I think what we have to look at is there's some serious gender bias on all issues. Female-related activites have a male bias, while men related ones have a female one.
For example, rape. It always burns me up when I see rape specials, and it's all about the poor female. Men HAVE gotten date raped before, or had stupid females cry rape on an innocent man.
Or the fact that a mother gets ALOT of leeway in the court system. And trust me, I've seen this one happen on a personal basis, even though the mother was proven to be MENTALLY INSANE before giving birth, the courts still believed all the shit she spewed out.

So, yeah. There's a different gender bias for every issue, I'm sad to say. When it comes to children, men usually get the short end of the stick.
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**Malik** · Local Prinny Deity Age: 34 Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 1179

When it comes down, it's usually gender bias on just about everything.

During most of the sex-ed stuff I had to endure, the lecturer said the male brain can do activities detattched from the emotional half while females can't. Yet in those exceptions, there are men who use emotions for every decision and females who don't. With that, females are usually a lot more understanding than males, but there are males who are a lot more understanding than females. Unfortunately, the insensitive male greatly outnumbers the sensitive male.

Tied into the media and mainstream, people are generally afraid of being different. For males, the mainstream is "manly" factor. It's hard for me to explain, but going with what HeatShadow said, those males are afraid of the "feminine" male. They can't connect with them for whatever reason, and would rather keep conformity.
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