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Tachyon360
Le Croissant
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 740
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 Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| tuxdev wrote: | | Might be fine for you and me, but it really is unnerving to most people when voices come out of nowhere. |
I'd rather have no voice responding whatsoever. Just a simple "ding" or "click" sound and maybe an unobtrusive graphical acknowledgement of the command being recieved is enough for me.
As for a computer voice being unnerving to the laity, I don't see it being a problem. As long as it's clear that the computer is speaking, the compter hardware itself would take the role of an avatar.
| tuxdev wrote: | | Part of the problem I see with our discussion is that I'm thinking about the Navi from the bottom (what exists today), and you are seeing it from the top (the ultimate form in Rockman.EXE). |
That part I agree with completely, and I think part of that stems from you being a computer science major with hopes of entering the field, and me being a medical school student with a hobby interest in industrial design. It would, however, be a misnomer to name as a Navi just a small part of what a Navi would ultimately be.
Granted, my idea of what a world with ubiquitous computing should be does have certain features in common with what Navis ultimately may be, but the overall effect is a good bit different. While your idea seems to be different to an extent as well, it seems closer to Rockman.EXE than what I'm imagining.
| tuxdev wrote: | | Even in the Rockman.EXE universe, the original Navis were quite dull and unemotional. |
But they still possessed three key features that would make a Navi a Navi. Mobility between devices, autonomously carrying out tasks based on human commands with some level of intelligence, and some sort of avatar. Like I've said before, the former is unnecessary, and the latter is bloat, leaving the medial up in the air.
From what I'm seeing, our argument boils down to three points:
1. How autonomous intelligent a user interface should be in carrying out tasks.
2. How control options are presented.
3. Intelligently recognizing what the user wants completed in relation to point 2.
In my opinion:
1. Not especially intelligent. I feel it's better if people just do things themselves, on a comand-per-command basis. (In the user interface sense, not the programming sense, mind you.) The exeption would be mundane and repetetive tasks, such as recording contacts or setting a schedule.
2. A graphical approach that's overlayed on the real world where applicable, with buttons and menus making up the bulk of the controls.
Tablet-on-monitor handwriting input and intelligent handwriting recognition would be used as a full keyboard replacement for day-to-day activities, since handwriting is more natural than typing. Keyboards and mice would be available for those who prefer such input, and the GUI would be atuomatically adjusted accordingly.
Voice controls would be present for those who prefer them (or need them, if such is the case), but would otherwise be secondary to the GUI. They would, however, be readily and seamlessly available for instances when one's hands are tied, from handiwork to driving to preparing for a dinner party.
3. The actual layout of the UI would gradually and subtly change over time based on statistical analysis of user's computing habits. Every so often, the user would notice a slight change in how the UI behaves, and the response would hopefully be, "Oh, that's convenient."
User-created handwriting or speech shorthand would be recognized and implemented with minimal user interaction. |
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tuxdev
Net Savior
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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But they still possessed three key features that would make a Navi a Navi. Mobility between devices, autonomously carrying out tasks based on human commands with some level of intelligence, and some sort of avatar. Like I've said before, the former is unnecessary, and the latter is bloat, leaving the medial up in the air.
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The former and latter are necessary for one of the key business uses of a Navi. The Navi acts as a stand-in for the real person sometimes, and conducts some business independently on behalf of the human. Think about Numberman restocking chips for Higure autonomously.
1. The Navi is for mundane and repetitive. Use one statement "Let's see todays stuff", and it loads all your email, news, webcomics, etc. We can also see from the Rockman.EXE universe that they are used to manage contacts and schedule ("Netto, get up, you'll be late for school!").
2. That's how it is today, but unfortunately, as applications get increasing complex, it will no longer work because there will simply be too many widgets. Apple's #1 interface design rule is 7 +/- 2 items per group. Take Google Calender: its main interface is a text field where you type stuff like "Software Engineering class at 3:00 PM - 5:00 PM MWF" "Team Meeting on Dec. 6 10:00 AM".
3. Microsoft is trying this with Ribbons, and IMO it is a really bad idea. I as a user do not like it when the interface layout changes on me. Think about when Gnome switched the OK and Cancel buttons. People who aren't used to that will click on the button they didn't intend to.
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It would, however, be a misnomer to name as a Navi just a small part of what a Navi would ultimately be.
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In my eyes, the exact I/O interface is just a small part of what a Navi system would have. It is the AI Core that differentiates a Navi from a dumb interface we already have. It is that AI Core which I sometimes refer to as a "Navi".
Real confusing, ne? That's why we need some formal Requirements to even talk about this without talking past each other to some extent. Even if the concept never comes to fruition, the practice is good for the Software geeks around here. We simply don't know what a "Navi" exactly is. We're getting there in this thread, but its really messy. Tachyon360, sorry that you are experiencing collateral damage from my (possibly incoherent) brainstorming.
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Tachyon360
Le Croissant
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 740
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| tuxdev wrote: | | The Navi is for mundane and repetitive. Use one statement "Let's see todays stuff", and it loads all your email, news, webcomics, etc. We can also see from the Rockman.EXE universe that they are used to manage contacts and schedule ("Netto, get up, you'll be late for school!"). |
Yes, Navis shown in EXE could serve that purpose, but why bother with everything else they can do? I don't mind doing everything myself, with the harsh exception of simple, annoying tasks (which I generally put off and wind up disorganized). For me, it's enough just to handle the simple and mundane, which need not necessarily require a Navi, unless by your definition of it being an interpreter of natural language.
| tuxdev wrote: | | That's how it is today, but unfortunately, as applications get increasing complex, it will no longer work because there will simply be too many widgets. Apple's #1 interface design rule is 7 +/- 2 items per group. Take Google Calender: its main interface is a text field where you type stuff like "Software Engineering class at 3:00 PM - 5:00 PM MWF" "Team Meeting on Dec. 6 10:00 AM". |
Modular software based on interpreting scripts or metadata to add features beyond the software's core capabilities would nicely fix the problem of complexity and bloat. The advantage would be two-fold: software would be lightweight and robust, and the user can add features that they'd actually use.
Take calendaring software, for instance: I don't need even half the features present in Outlook or Evolution, and the advanced features I could use are hopelessly obsured by a veritable ocean of bloat. Thunderbird and Lightning are better, but they still have stuff I don't need, but conversely lack some things that could be handy.
Google Calendar is nice, but the lack of a software client or two-way syncing (barring really messy hacks) with existing calendaring apps is a deal-breaker for me. Software and user data must be local (though backing up data online automatically is a pretty good idea).
XUL is similar to what I have in mind, but for it to really work out, the system would have to be faster and sleeker. There should be no major performance difference between an app loading 5 extensions and an app loading 50 extensions.
In my opinion, a killer calendaring app possible would be one that would interact with a UI's speech or handwriting component and accurately figure out that you're trying to set an appointment. Greater still would also be interaction with an augmented reality system that would figure out the user's gestures in relation to the real world or recognize when a higher-up is setting a certain appointment, and then create appointments based on that data. The end result would be a tidy calendar with neat appointments that are user tweakable in the case of an error.
While that last bit reeks of Navi, it need not necessarily be exclusive to Navis (your definition of it being a natural language interpreter alone notwithstanding).
| tuxdev wrote: | | Microsoft is trying this with Ribbons, and IMO it is a really bad idea. I as a user do not like it when the interface layout changes on me. Think about when Gnome switched the OK and Cancel buttons. People who aren't used to that will click on the button they didn't intend to. |
I'm thinking along far more subtle and far more frequent lines. The UI would actively analyze what tasks you commonly do, how you begin them, what you do to get to them, how long it takes to navigate the UI with your navigating quirks and habits, etc, etc. Then it makes small adjustments that resemble the previous layout very closely but make its use more efficient.
Microsoft's Ribbon concept is a large reorganization of the interface, and doesn't really add or subtract features. It makes the interface cleaner, and simplifies it based on a given task being worked on, but the changes are nevertheless radical enough for some learning curve. Big no-no for what I have in mind. Even though radical changes would happen over relatively long periods of time, they would occur in little tidbits at a time, giving the user ample time to adjust without ever breaking familiarity with the interface at any given moment.
Likewise, swapping buttons is a Bad Idea (TM). That's the exact opposite of what a statistically adaptable interface should do, since said interface actively evolves based on habit. If anything, it would force new pieces of software installed to have dialogue buttons conform to what the user is used to.
Here's the beautiful part: given enough time, a user and an interface would adapt to each other such that the user could perform most computing tasks on an instant's notice, with the more infrequently used features neatly tucked away such that they can be accessed effortlessly and intuitively should they ever be needed. The adaptation would be so great that having another person use said UI would be like asking a guy off the street to recite the 12 cranial nerves and describe what they innervate. That would be the ultimate level of personal computing, in a poetic sense.
| tuxdev wrote: | | Real confusing, ne? |
I'm still following this thread, so it can't be that confusing, eh?
| tuxdev wrote: | | That's why we need some formal Requirements to even talk about this without talking past each other to some extent. Even if the concept never comes to fruition, the practice is good for the Software geeks around here. We simply don't know what a "Navi" exactly is. We're getting there in this thread, but its really messy. |
Even with a set of formal discussion requirements to ensure comparisons are apples to apples, new ideas not described in such guidelines would throw everything out of balance again, so it might be like comparing Rome Beauties to Gingergolds. Guidelines and requirements might stifle brainstorming, which is exactly what's going on right here, especially since there exists no formal definition for the concept at hand - a Navi.
| tuxdev wrote: | | Tachyon360, sorry that you are experiencing collateral damage from my (possibly incoherent) brainstorming. |
I'm actually enjoying this thread. Something mentally stimulating is always welcome, what with all the "OMG liek well 4re gting MEGAMAN soon11111!!!!!!" that I've seen posted in this forum. |
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Kgkemo
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:38 am Post subject: |
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It seems interesting that we are coming closer to "real" Navis, but if they do come along in the next 50 or so years, I can forsee some of the following problems:
-A glitched/rogue Navi could possibly take out a lot of electronic devices before it can be destroyed/fixed
-People with bad intentions can use them to cause a ton of damage, i.e. World Three
-Misuse in school situations, as in they could use their Navi to cheat, this could be remedied, however, by dissallowing them in schools, but still, we may become overly dependent on them for daily life, that this wouldn't be an option.
-If a EXE-like network happens, what's to say EXE-like viruses couldn't? Yet another problem, but extremely unlikely to exist
But the good things:
-Yet another reminder system, can't go wrong with being reminded of important stuff
-The voice of reason, if they could have actuall AI, why not have them warn you of wrongs? Though other people could warn you all the same
-Easier to do everyday things, though this is an example of man becoming lazier and lazier
-The companionship, this may be nerdy, but having someone, even if it would be just a program, to talk with at any given time, without bad judgement towards the person, seems nice
I'll remain optimistic about this, but there are still plenty of flaws with a "real" Navi being created. I'm not good at explaining this either, so I won't be able to argue my statement well. |
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marinakoko2
Age: 28
Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 22
Location: Near teh ocean.. o.o
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Nice!! It's coming closer...(maybe...)
Why can't we discuss the PETs? Where can Navi go home? It's true you can Misused the Navi to cheat.... I know Navis go home to their PET but they can't go home without it... I choose the PET.... Progress PET with cord?? If only possible... It's very difficult to have a Navi or PET.... If I have one I don't mind it... just exited!! weeeeeeee!! If your not bad to use a Navi to cheat, destroy things in the internet, getting some ideas everywhere it's possible... Bad Navi/Operator is a huge problem... Too many problems... Maybe the Net Police will do the work, besides Bad Navi/Operator will destroy things around... I don't know about the Battle Chips, Touch Screen in PET 3, Touch Pen in Link Pet, how about the Dark Chips or Synchro Chips... they might be useful BUT!!.... DARK CHIPS ARE BAD FOR NAVIS ESPECIALLY FOR KIDS!! THE DARK SOUL WILL CONTROL THE MIND AND BODY OF A NAVI SO IT'S BADDDD!! The Synchro Chips are useful... But how can a virus can enter real-world or an Asteroid using a Dimensional Chips?! How they can make a Dimensional Converters to stop them?! I hope there is no Virus in the real-world because they are our most problem!! How can we remove the bug in a internet?! 1 last sentence... DO NOT MISUSED NAVIS!!! |
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Fortex
Net Battler
Age: 35
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 97
Location: With Dark Rockman.EXE
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, it's really great.
Just like a realization of an animation things
Wish that i have one.
It'll be great if we could decide and make the form of it by our own
I'm suck on computers though. So, i can't do anything about programming and such
If this thing could help us bust viruses, then Norton, AVG, and McAfee will be just craps
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Wackoman.EXE
HOHOHOHO
Age: 32
Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 1372
Location: SUPER SPIRAL GALAXY
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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I almost read the article, but then decided not to because of that awful joke
SEOUL AND SOUL GET IT
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NetOperator Wibby
Wings of Dreams
Age: 36
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 772
Location: Hikari Labs � Dimensional Area
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Kgkemo wrote: | It seems interesting that we are coming closer to "real" Navis, but if they do come along in the next 50 or so years, I can forsee some of the following problems:
-A glitched/rogue Navi could possibly take out a lot of electronic devices before it can be destroyed/fixed
-People with bad intentions can use them to cause a ton of damage, i.e. World Three
-Misuse in school situations, as in they could use their Navi to cheat, this could be remedied, however, by dissallowing them in schools, but still, we may become overly dependent on them for daily life, that this wouldn't be an option.
-If a EXE-like network happens, what's to say EXE-like viruses couldn't? Yet another problem, but extremely unlikely to exist
But the good things:
-Yet another reminder system, can't go wrong with being reminded of important stuff
-The voice of reason, if they could have actuall AI, why not have them warn you of wrongs? Though other people could warn you all the same
-Easier to do everyday things, though this is an example of man becoming lazier and lazier
-The companionship, this may be nerdy, but having someone, even if it would be just a program, to talk with at any given time, without bad judgement towards the person, seems nice
I'll remain optimistic about this, but there are still plenty of flaws with a "real" Navi being created. I'm not good at explaining this either, so I won't be able to argue my statement well. |
haha, this just reminded me of something. about the "using in school to cheat" thing. that was said about Nintendo DS's at my high-school when it came out but not any people bought them. the glitched/rogue navi thing (or being mistaken for one) sounds a lot like Bass and his situation. im all for an EXE-like network simply because of all the cool stuff i could put on my personal page and my weblog.
| Fortex wrote: |
Oh, it's really great.
Just like a realization of an animation things
Wish that i have one.
It'll be great if we could decide and make the form of it by our own
I'm suck on computers though. So, i can't do anything about programming and such
If this thing could help us bust viruses, then Norton, AVG, and McAfee will be just craps |
McAfee is already crap, no NetNavi to cause that, lol. NOD32's better IMHO. all in all, there are good sides, there are bad sides. even if this technology would make way to an EXE-styled Net, there would obviously be a bunch of safeguards in place. however, safeguards are always designed by humans ... which leaves a (no matter how small) percentage for error. it is definitely nice to dream though. 
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