A real NetNavi?

[tricky77puzzle]

I realize that this isn't really "off-topic" from Rockman, but I was just thinking about this.

What if we could realize one of the concepts from the Megaman series? It might just be a faraway dream, but I'm thinking of submitting such an idea to Exploravision next year.

It would take some time, but I think it can be done. Not to the extent of Rockman, of course, because that actually involves trying to reverse-engineer the human brain, but to the extent of a standard Navi, like the one Netto (Lan) has in the first episode.

(If I'm not being realistic here, please explain why; don't try to flame me for it. If you feel like I'm insulting the fandom, like a few people thought I did when making that title song dub of Shouri no Uta, tell me, but don't make a fuss out of it.)


First, I'd like to explain the history, to the best of my ability (which isn't all that expert in the first place), of the net navigator. A web browser, like Firefox or Internet Explorer, is a Gen-1 Navi. (It can go on the Internet, basically.)

However, the Gen-1 Navis all have a very severe limitation. They can only access predetermined links. That is, they can only access websites that they know the location of. They also do not have any graphical data.

Now, enter the Gen-1.5 Navi, also known as a web crawler. These guys have the ability to search out links from wherever they are. That is, they have the ability to actually browse for connections outward of the router that they are currently in. After the links are searched out, they can be accessed just like a Gen-1 Navi could. Web crawlers do not have any graphical data either.

All Gen-1.x Navis have another limitation, and that is that they cannot operate without a direct command from a computer, and always stay inside the computer, while the operating system handles all requests. The Gen-2 Navi has AI, and can transport itself through websites and devices, after voiced commands are given by the operator and recognized through fuzzy Bayesian recognition software built into the program. (Bayesian recognition is basically where you train the Navi to follow your specific voice, including intonations and speech sounds, through repeated correction of mistakes in recognition. You can also correct idiomatic recognitions with Bayesian recognition as well.)

The Navi that exists in the Rockman series would be a Gen-2.5 Navi. These guys have graphical data, and can depict whatever space they are in as a three-dimensional "room" of sorts. There is a derivative of Firefox called "3B" that pictures a 3-D space inside an "Internet Airport" that basically browses through different categories of websites. It also has the ability to "bust" viruses by shooting out virus-nullification programs depicted as bullets on the visualization. However, it could not be a substitute for a real antivirus program (which would be depicted by a giant broom, perhaps) because it could only delete individual viruses, that have not merged themselves into files.

Only Gen 2.5+ Navis can go through net-battles, because they are the only ones with graphical data. In net-battle mode, no real damage would be done to the program itself, but instead, the program has a special "game console" inside it that can create a battle scene, where both Navis have a certain amount of "HP". Battle-chips would work in the exact same way as in the TV series.

To make the personal terminal for the program would be a "piece of cake" once the program itself is finished, because we already have devices smaller than the Gen-2 PET that can hold much more than it does.

To make the program itself, however, would require a huge team of people including:
- AI engineers, especially
- Computer programmers
- Graphic designers
- Network engineers
...and would probably take about 10 to 20 years and a few trillion dollars (Maybe only a few billion? I sometimes seriously overestimate these things.) over these 10 to 20 years, which may not be feasible.

However, it would be an interesting concept for Web 3.0 or later, that could be tested out on a private server. What do you think? Is it already being done?

(If there's anything in the description that I missed, please tell me.)

EDIT: And no, we do not need to wait for someone named Tadashi Hikari to do it. Please don't make jokes about that.

[Sol]

The problem with your theory is that if you remember what Yuuichirou said at the end of EXE 1, creating Net Navis is almost akin to playing god. Yuuichirou had to use Saito's DNA in order to build Rockman, who I think is the first specialized Net Navi created, not counting Forte (although I could be wrong). From what I understand, the first generation of navis were developed after Rockman, IIRC.

Obviously, we have no way of implimenting real life human DNA to artificial programming. Not only that, technology hasn't progressed far enough for such a reality. Not only that, what would be the politics of such a creation?
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Art in icon done by Raburabbit.

[Sol]

The problem with your theory is that if you remember what Yuuichirou said at the end of EXE 1, creating Net Navis is almost akin to playing god. Yuuichirou had to use Saito's DNA in order to build Rockman, who I think is the first specialized Net Navi created, not counting Forte (although I could be wrong). From what I understand, the first generation of navis were developed after Rockman, IIRC.

Obviously, we have no way of implimenting real life human DNA to artificial programming. Not only that, technology hasn't progressed far enough for such a reality. Not only that, what would be the politics of such a creation?
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<3 Planty~
Art in icon done by Raburabbit.

[tricky77puzzle]

Well, we don't exactly have to follow the story, do we...

Anyway, it's just an idea, I only have about 10% of a clue whether it can be realized or not.

As well, I do realize that DNA engineering converting itself to data is pretty much impossible for the next 40 years. However, in my description, I didn't really include anything about including a human soul in any part of it. When I talk about NetNavis, you may automatically assume something along the line of Rockman, but the assumption is false.

As much as following the story would be nice, that really is a faraway dream.

I never played to the end of EXE 1... boo hoo for me. I couldn't beat ElecMan's stage.

Anyway, it's already 20XX, so why not get started making the concept?

[Goten8905]

It wouldn't be hard, our first generation can be a PET without the ability to plug-in. Just a personnel terminal. Then we can build it up from there.
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[SeijinKage13]

Wait a second... wasn't there another thread like this?
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[Robin.exe]

The "What if NEtnavis are Real?" Thread? If you mean by that then yes.

But he's talking about actual programming and systems of how it could happen.

In other words its simaler to the other thread. Although I think he means the process of it actually happening simialer to the series. But not directly like it.

Though go easy on the red font>< Hard to read it.

[tricky77puzzle]

[Robin.exe]

I'm going to have to keep editing this post to link to those that are simaler to this.

Link 1: http://www.rockman-exe.com/online/viewtopic.php?t=463

Link 2: http://www.rockman-exe.com/online/viewtopic.php?t=7475

[tricky77puzzle]

Huh, these topics are all about PET's. To make a PET for the Navi is pretty much easy schmeezy compared to making the Navi itself. We already have PDA's that can hold 3 GB on a hard disk the size of a fingernail. How hard could it be to have a disk 1000 times that size? (The size of a Gen-2 PET, which is, I believe, approximately 17 x 15 cm x 2 cm, minus the handle, could contain a hard disk that size along with the casing and monitor.)

A Gen-3 PET wouldn't be that far away either. (I mean, we already have a concept - the toy version.) However, the substantial holographic screen could be.

Sorry about the red... that's just my edit colour. If I edit one of my posts, I use red to mark it. (If I ever become a moderator on a forum, I'll also use red edits to edit other people's posts.)

[Elementalman.EXE]

I don't know what on earth your talking about with these Generation navis. It sounds random and almost just made up, being presented as truth in a scientific theory. A Web browser isn't the same thing as a Net Navi.

At any rate, getting past that confusing Generation stuff, the point is that you are trying to create life. Which is, well, impossible, and playing God, which is wrong. Remember Icarus.
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Elementalman.EXE
Nothing is True. Everything is Permitted.
1000 Post on Sept. 18 2005 at 6:29pm

[tricky77puzzle]

Not per-se trying to create life... of course you can't create life... (unless you can... humans have already synthesized proto-organisms.) I believe you think I am trying to create a Net Navi according to the storyline set by Rockman.EXE. Well, I'm not. The idea of a Net Navi itself is feasible, not the idea of giving them human personalities. There is a difference.

Of course a web browser's not the same thing as a Navi in the Rockman sense. They have their similarities, though, as the fact that they are both intended to go on the Internet and do things.

(Did I ever say what I was doing was a scientific theory? It's not per-se scientific, it's just a tenth of an idea at present. Please don't try to inflate my ego in your own opinion; I'm not assuming any superiority. If I appear to, I'm sorry.)

Well, the "generation" stuff is pretty much made up, but in a way that makes sense. I got the idea of using "generations" to explain different progressions in Navis with the "PET" page on this website. However, pretty much every idea in science and art is "made up".

[Equilibrium]

Been there, done that


also the concept of a real-life navi sort of fall apart when you consider that the mmbn universe have very distinct rules which cannot be broken. Because it's fiction.
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[tricky77puzzle]

ARGH... why do people not realize that this concept is completely unfaithful to the story?!?

[Unknown Neo]

Thank you Equilibrium. You know, that was found to be like Spyware.

BonziBuddy received wide recognition as malware, predominantly as a piece of adware, though claims of spyware capabilities have been made against it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonzai_buddy
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,130647-page,6-c,techindustrytrends/article.html

[tricky77puzzle]

Huh. Only difference is, I think BonziBuddy, unlike the concept of a NetNavi, can only send preprogrammed messages. The concept I'm trying to use here is one like 20Q.net uses. Basically, the most AI the Navi really has is the ability to use a Bayesian-type deduction (not sure if that's a word, but Bayesian filtering is a method of spam filtering used by Thunderbird and possibly OE that looks for words most commonly used in spam messages. It can be considered a type of AI.) to give messages. In other words, it "learns" from the user, and develops its own personality from him/her. It's kind of like that game, "Black and White II", or something. Except for the fact that it shouldn't be a game.

[Tachyon360]

I really, really hate the idea of Navis for two reasons.

First, 3D interfaces just don't work. 3D effects can be useful in terms of usability, but the room concept has been done to death, and it never picked up for good reason. You'd think people would drop the idea after Microsoft Bob, but damn near every company has tried at least a tech demo.

The reality is that flat metaphors work best for flat devices. Yes, our world is 3d, true, but that doesn't carry over to computing. Simulating a 3D world on a personal computer would only make finding data difficult and atrociously time-consuming. You're not walking, you're just pressing a button to simulate it and looking at a screen as if it were a small window. It works for games, but it doesn't work for work. Unless you can physically overlay a UI onto the real world, 3D interfaces are slow and just not intuitive.

Second, a Navi itself would in practice be very much like BonziBUDDY. Try to deny it all you want, but a cutesy little figure popping up as if it had its own will (and especially if it really did have its own will) is annoying, and a waste of screen real estate. Windows, icons, and menus have been in use so long because they're both intuitive enough to figure out with minimal instruction (if even that), and they're quite efficient for retrieving and presenting data.

Where do I think the future of UIs lie? I personally expect them to stay basically the same for years to come, albeit tweaked and refined. Human interaction will be augmented by automation of mundane tasks (creating calendar dates based on vocal cues, or jotting down notes as a slide presentation goes along, both without user interaction are just two examples), as well as wide and strong adoption of touchscreen interfaces. Hey, it took 30 years for the industry to adopt mice on as wide a scale as we see now, and multitouch interfaces are just beginning to approach that point.

Things will really start to change once pervasive computing and mobile augmented reality take hold, but that won't be a computing environment for Navis or virtual avatars. Oh no, quite the contrary, it'll be us interacting with computers as part of the real world, rather than as a metaphor of the real world.
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[tricky77puzzle]

[Tachyon360]

I usually reserve judgment of the person, no matter how much I rag on an idea. My apologies if my tone was unnecessarily harsh - that's just my style of writing.

In any event, the most basic idea of a PET is a very good one. It's tantamount to Microsoft's marketing crap for its Origami project - a sort of go-anywhere do-anything device, if you will.

However, UIs need to be especially lean for devices like that, as you're working with a relatively small device and extremely limited screen real estate. Unless Navis were the very crux of the interface concept, they'd be like BonziBUDDY bending over and taking a dump on your cellphone. Even then, an animated avatar is pointless when there are more direct and straightforward ways to interact with data, so an interface built around such an avatar would be weak and inefficient.

The way I see it, a device like that would be more akin to a Transer from Ryusei no Rockman. That is, it would be a general-purpose computing and remote control device with a user interface that dynamically changes depending on where you are and what appliances are positioned immediately around you.

On a side note, if you work with only one window maximized at a time, you're really missing out. I used to do that, until I went batshit insane and got a 30" monster. Best purchase *ever.* I'm not a productivity-obsessed guy (far from it, in fact), but the productivity boost was clear and downright damn amazing. Plus gaming on that thing rocks hard. Seriously, you owe it to yourself to save up some cash and get a second monitor, or if you're really splurgy, just one huge monitor.
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[tricky77puzzle]

[Tachyon360]

No, Blackberries don't fit the mold, not in the slightest. PDAs are a far cry from what a PET would be. The iPhone, as a data consumption device, is a step in the right direction, but there are still miles to walk.

Think for a second. Imagine you're in your bedroom, and you have with you a UMPC-like device that offers controls for all features in your room, from your TV, to your lighting, to your HVAC system, to your telephone line, to your PC's webcam, and even some basic features of the PC itself (à la PlutoHome and Vista SideShow), in addition to a standard set of data consumption features. Then you step out of your room and head to the kitchen. Some features remain the same - you'd still have media, lighting, HVAC, and telephony controls. However, some UI elements would reconfigure themselves as you'd move from room to room - for example, you could check the inventory of your fridge, or set an oven timer, all with the flick of a finger.

Take that idea and scale it up to a school, or mall, or a museum, and you'll see that a Blackberry this is not. This would require both robust, industry-wide mesh networking and a number of open protocols to foster appliance control and situational interactivity, forming the very basis of what could ultimately evolve into a true pervasive computing environment. We're still years away from that.

A Navi is itself UI bloat. It serves no meaningful purpose in terms of interacting with computers. This isn't a matter of aesthetics at all. This is a matter of sound interface design, which I contend that Navis are not, no matter what features you try to shove into the concept.
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