| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Eyebright
Net Official
Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 304
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
|
 Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 6:08 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
I'm sorry...
_________________
I win because I love my enemies. Do you love your enemies? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Plantman
It's only Forever... Not long at all!
Age: 44
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 1819
Location: Mexico
|
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 6:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Don't be sorry. Just keep in mind a fandom such as this can attract many people by many different reasons, your views on it might or might not be shared by others, facts and opinions are different things.
_________________
 Hecha en MÉXICO - Avatar by Me.
"Logic is the Ultimate Weapon." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Toto
Net Savior
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 184
|
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Plantman wrote: | The thing is, what makes you believe WE aren't 'programed'. Just because they're artificial their feelings do not follow the same basis behind ours.
We ARE programmed, there's programation in human beings through genetics, we're programmed by nature and intraction with the medium to behave and like certain things.
Some people in the world are programmed since their conception to be serial killers for example, some people are programmed to feel atraction for one gender over the other -yes, some cases of homosexuality are genetic.
They might be programs, but remember the whole thing behind the games and anime is that navis are as "human" as the humans that created them and sometimes even more human then men. Humanity isn't a trait exclusive to mankind as much as we like to believe it is. Love is real as soon as it's not 'imposed' or forced. Again, you're disregarding the fact Capcom itself chooses to give real feelings and real 'humanity' to these 'man creations'. Nobody forced Andrew to fall in love, nobody programmed him to fall in love with one human.
In the context of the game and the context of the anime, it is possible because it's been already shown there. Again, this topic is not about 'real life' it's about what the game and anime -and sometimes maybe the mangas- present to us. and by that context, they're possible they're real, and they're not 'programmed' into any of the navis. |
You do have a big point in here--humans are programmed too. I'm just not so sure that an artificial program can feel the same way, but it does make me lean towards your side here. Can you really make something that isn't living feel genuine love? It's possible that they can and it's possible that they cannot. There's not really a true answer to this question. I really can't back up that they cannot truly feel real emotions anymore, because I don't know the technology implemented into the navis.
The thing that just doesn't allow me to fully believe they can is the fact that they aren't living. It just seems so...simulated. Although the emotion feels real, is it really? The way that humans are programmed and the way that navis are programmed just seems different. While seeing the movie AI, I really wondered if his emotions were genuine or not...same with navis. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eyebright
Net Official
Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 304
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
|
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
There is no real way of telling whether anything is alive or just reacts to something else. Navis show all the signs of having the faculties which scientists use to gauge whether something is living or not - respond to stimuli, etc. - so it's safer to assume that they are alive to by on the safe side then to mistreat them by disregarding their apparent emotions and well-being.
_________________
I win because I love my enemies. Do you love your enemies? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Toto
Net Savior
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 184
|
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Eyebright wrote: | | There is no real way of telling whether anything is alive or just reacts to something else. Navis show all the signs of having the faculties which scientists use to gauge whether something is living or not - respond to stimuli, etc. - so it's safer to assume that they are alive to by on the safe side then to mistreat them by disregarding their apparent emotions and well-being. |
But it's proven that they aren't alive. They're programs with AI systems. However, I'm having a hard time knowing if they can actually feel emotion or not. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eyebright
Net Official
Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 304
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
|
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
*sigh* Once again, just because something is synthetic doesn't mean that it is not alive. Navis are based on humans, they show all the signs of life, they react to their environment, and they can even go against orders and programmed directives, as Plantman has pointed out.
Also, if they did not have some measure of free will or emotion, it would severely impair their ability to react well to new situations and to function.
_________________
I win because I love my enemies. Do you love your enemies? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Toto
Net Savior
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 184
|
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 8:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Eyebright wrote: | | *sigh* Once again, just because something is synthetic doesn't mean that it is not alive. |
The dictionary defines life as "The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism."
Can navis reproduce? Can they grow? Do they have metabolism? They may be able to react to their surroundings, but I don't think that they're actually alive. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nazne
Shukei - Hakuteiken
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 1133
|
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 8:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That's our human definition. How are we to know about other forms of "alive" when we can't feel them ourselves? :P Even now humans are discovering new forms of "life" on the ocean floor and in deep corners of the Earth no one thought life could exist in. If stuff can live in there, why can't there be other forms of "life"?
-BMA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eyebright
Net Official
Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 304
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
|
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 8:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
They have the most fundamental aspects of living creatures - the ability to adapt and response to stimuli. Nobody knows how jellyfish, for instance, reproduce or even how they live, and yet they are classified as living things.
And 'reproduction' also means the regeneration of cells. Navis have the power to heal wounds, therefore they do reproduce.
_________________
I win because I love my enemies. Do you love your enemies? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Midnight
This is a Hilbert Space
Age: 37
Joined: 18 Mar 2005
Posts: 3089
Location: The AfterMath. Otherwise, New York City.
|
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 8:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I am not sure if all navis have the ability to regenerate themselves. Surely such a feature would be irrelevant for some more generic navis. Then would we have to label some navis as "alive" and others as not?
_________________
Today, these three players are after Big Bucks! But they'll have to avoid the Whammy, as they play the most exciting game of their lives! From Television City in Hollywood! It's time to 'Press Your Luck!'--Rod Roddy
The Kingdom of Loathing: An Adventurer is You! // I ♣ Seals
Avatar by Spork. I very much appreciate it! <3 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Plantman
It's only Forever... Not long at all!
Age: 44
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 1819
Location: Mexico
|
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 8:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm going to have to interject between you two now. XD
First off Eyebright, Navis are not 'alive' in the basic terminology we are and perhaps not in the same 'reality' as we are. You could consider it a 'fake' life. A computer could be considered 'alive' when it's working, and dead when it's broken. Our planet is considered 'alive' even though it doesn't have any of the scientific definitions of 'life'.
But, Net navis are real and alive in their own 'reality' if you want, that immediately grants them the status of living things with real feelings and real emotions within their realm.
It's like this oh-so-comon affirmation: "It's the internet, it's not real" when people have an argument in the internet. Technically since it takes place on the internet, this affirmation claims you just need to turn off the computer and your problem automatically goes away.
Well, it's not that way, even if the 'world' everything happens isn't real, the people interacting in it have feelings and reactions derivated fromt he interaction in that virtual world. Just because navis are on a virtual world and are a simulation of the real world and human beings, doesn't mean to them their emotions are real and as genuine as ours. Since, as I said we're programmed as well. We are so programmed not only by our genetic but also by our enviroment.
_________________
Hecha en MÉXICO - Avatar by Me.
"Logic is the Ultimate Weapon."
Last edited by Plantman on Wed May 11, 2005 9:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eyebright
Net Official
Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 304
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
|
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 8:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What matters is that they have the capacity to regenerate, even if most can't do so without human help.
And Nazne is right. There are so many forms of life that the very definition of 'life' is more like a loose guideline. It would be best to give it the benefit of the doubt.
_________________
I win because I love my enemies. Do you love your enemies? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Elizabeth
Net Agent
Age: 38
Joined: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 221
Location: Wherever I happen to be right now
|
| Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 9:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Eyebright wrote: | | Nobody knows how jellyfish, for instance, reproduce or even how they live, and yet they are classified as living things. |
I have to disagree with you on that one - scientists know quite a bit about how jellyfish reproduce and live: [link] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eyebright
Net Official
Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 304
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
|
| Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 9:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Interesting... thank you, Elizabeth!
There are quite a few living things that cannot reproduce, though... at least not in the conventional way. Mules are completely barren, for instance.
I think the most important requirement to life is some form of awareness, and Navis definitely have that.
_________________
I win because I love my enemies. Do you love your enemies? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Plantman
It's only Forever... Not long at all!
Age: 44
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 1819
Location: Mexico
|
| Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 10:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well some plants wouldn't really have 'awareness' but they're alive. It is hard to describe what elements define life. Or 'animated' life could be another way to describe what we're thinking about.
_________________
Hecha en MÉXICO - Avatar by Me.
"Logic is the Ultimate Weapon." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eyebright
Net Official
Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 304
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
|
| Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 10:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Exactly. 'Life' is a very hard set of qualities to pin down.
_________________
I win because I love my enemies. Do you love your enemies? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
meggirl63
banned onoes :<
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 1181
|
| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 10:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
I wonder if NetNavis have the ability to bear children just like humans can.
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eyebright
Net Official
Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 304
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
|
| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 4:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I'm glad you asked that, because I mentioned this once in a different thread, but it would be better to talk about it here.
As is apparent from the way in which Shademan took over the Earth in episode 32 of Stream, Navis CAN reproduce - through parthogenesis. They can make copies of themselves with their data, but I think that only Darkloids or independent Navis can do it without human intervention.
Perhaps some strange variety of Soul Unison with data alone rather than whole Navis could result in a Navi with the traits of both 'parents'...
_________________
I win because I love my enemies. Do you love your enemies? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
meggirl63
banned onoes :<
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 1181
|
| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 5:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Eyebright wrote: | Well, I'm glad you asked that, because I mentioned this once in a different thread, but it would be better to talk about it here.
As is apparent from the way in which Shademan took over the Earth in episode 32 of Stream, Navis CAN reproduce - through parthogenesis. They can make copies of themselves with their data, but I think that only Darkloids or independent Navis can do it without human intervention.
Perhaps some strange variety of Soul Unison with data alone rather than whole Navis could result in a Navi with the traits of both 'parents'... |
Wow, really? That's cool! Btw, what's 'parthogenesis'?
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Plantman
It's only Forever... Not long at all!
Age: 44
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 1819
Location: Mexico
|
| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 5:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
the way Cells reproduce. Splitting themselves to create two separate but fully functional and 'living' cells.
_________________
Hecha en MÉXICO - Avatar by Me.
"Logic is the Ultimate Weapon." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
